is a household name in Nigeria. A founding member of the ruling Peoples
Democratic Party (PDP), he was, in 1979, a presidential aspirant on the
platform of the defunct National Party of Nigeria (NPN). He studied History at
the University of Ibadan, worked in the Civil Service, became editor of New
Nigerian Newspaper, and was appointed governor of the Central Bank of Nigeria
from 1975 to 1977. He was also Federal Minister of Finance from 1999 to 2003.
In this interview, he explained why Nigeria is faced with many crises today. Excerpts:
is one of the key issues before the Jonathan administration. Many people
thought it has not been handled well but now the government is talking about
the amnesty offer. What do you think about it?
I don’t know. The issue of security is very serious politically, very serious
economically and it has not been handled correctly. We recommended that
President Jonathan should consider amnesty. Since then we have not repeated it
but the Sultan said it, Shehu said it, Borno leaders said it and everybody said
it. The latest is that he is going to appoint a committee; we don’t know what
the committee will look like.
You offered all the advice and
it was not heeded?
No, I cannot say so. Actually my view is that it should start with governors.
The governors of Borno, Kano, Gombe, Adamawa, Taraba and the governor of Bauchi
each should sit down and compose a list of the Boko Haram-looking people if
they know them. All the religious people, both Christians and Muslims, and
other influential people in the states, they need to consult them. This is the
problem that we have got, it is killing our economy; people are dying as a
result of that. If the military are intervening in a way that we do not like,
so tell these people that look, without you there will be no peace, but all of
you want peace, so what is your advice?
People did not come to Sardauna to tell him you should do this and that; he
called them to advise him whenever he had a problem. So these governors, they
must call people, state by state. When all these states involved have done
that, the president can now call them to discuss what those important people
have recommended. When all the recommendations come from Kano, from Yobe, from
Maiduguri and the other states, there must be the seed of solution to the
problem. You can now choose the things you do, prioritise them accordingly.
This is what I want to see happen.
The other governors…I don’t meet them but I sent a message to one of them
advising him that this is the kind of thing that I feel you should do, but he
has done nothing about it. So even if I see the other governors, they may do
the same. But in my view this is one approach that may help to solve the
problem.
The governor of Borno State has tried something but not quite along this line.
What you can say is that he is in agreement with the elders of Borno but he has
got additional responsibility. One of the problems which has arisen, and it
started from the military, is that governors do not consult people. They think
they have got the right to do whatever they like to do, and a lot of the things
they want to do are with money. They don’t consult. In the north east, we went
and gathered all the important people there, but the governors said no. they
were suspecting us!
You were appointed Governor of
the Central Bank in 1975 and there was this story that it was a mix up…
No, there was no mix up anywhere. Aliko [Mohamed, Dan Iyan Misau] was just
telling some misleading story, that some people thought because he is an
accountant, he was meant to be the governor of the Central Bank. The fact is
that I resigned from public service and went to the private sector. When the
coup took place in 1975, there were complaints about foreign exchange dealings
and government wanted somebody to come and clean the thing. They called me to
do it and I did it well. I have been lucky; whenever they ask me to do
something I do it well.
Even though I was a director of the CBN for so many years before my
appointment, the fact is that when I went, I started doing the job for which I
was employed to do and I started learning about the Central Bank and I did a
lot of things for the bank which they are still benefitting from. I was in the
Central Bank for two years only. I was there and then there was going to be the
Constituent Assembly and somehow, you know in those days everybody wanted to
elect the best to the Constituent Assembly.
Nobody consulted me [in Borno State], they just elected me. And you cannot do
the job of the Governor of the Central Bank and any other job, it is against
the law. So when they elected me, I resigned from CBN.
This story about a mix up went
on for many years and you didn’t bother to clarify it. To get this matter
straight, when General Murtala appointed you as Governor of the Central Bank,
what exactly happened?
When the coup took place one of the stories that were going round was that
there was magu-magu in handling the foreign exchange matter in the Central Bank
and they wanted somebody they trusted to put it right. If there was any
magu-magu this man will eliminate it. They called me. There was nothing
accidental about it. One thing is that by our training, you can never say no to
anything you are asked to do which will assist anywhere, at the federal or the
state. So when I was called I had no option than to go.
Did you discover the magu-magu
that was taking place?
I didn’t want to find anything. I wanted to do the right thing, apply the rules
and ensure that they were followed so that nobody would even remember magu-magu
because even if you want to do it you cannot do it.
When you were elected to the
Constituent Assembly didn’t you see it as a climb down from the Governor of
CBN? Or were you already thinking of becoming president of Nigeria?
I was not thinking of anything like that. What I know is that in Borno as well
as Sokoto and other places in the north, they wanted to ensure that they elect
the best for the Constituent Assembly. So in Borno when the elders and other
people met, I happened to be one of the people that were elected. The idea of
climb down never occurred to me. I just knew I was given a job and I had to do
it. I couldn’t have been the CBN governor and at the same time be in the
Constituent Assembly.
So I opted to do what my people wanted me to do. What is governor of Central
Bank? When I was appointed governor of CBN, I was living in Kaduna. And I went
to Kaduna every weekend and I paid for the trips myself. What I spent on those
weekly trips to Kaduna consumed all my salary. You may ask how did I live?
Well, I was from the private sector, I had some investments, I had some revenue
to live on. So I didn’t go there for the salary.
Still on the Central Bank; you
recently took the trouble of going to the National Assembly to defend the
autonomy of the apex bank. Is it because of Sanusi or it is more than that?
I didn’t know Sanusi. I only related with his father who was a friend of my
uncle. We related so well when he was ambassador in Brussels. I even went on
holiday in Brussels. When they were trying to contrive this change in the
status of the Central Bank I was convinced that the Bank as constituted on the
existing law has been one of the most successful institutions in Nigeria. In
spite of everything that has happened in Nigeria, Central Bank has remained
more or less as it was meant to be.
So the system there works and they have maintained the tradition of central
banking. So unless you want to change it for the better, there is no point. If
you are just saying the Central Bank has too much power or the governor is this
and that, it does not make sense. If the Central Bank has not been working, the
economy would have been much worse than it is now.
What about all these interventions that CBN is doing in agriculture, textiles,
aviation, and at one point the CBN talking of buying big generators for banks
and industries in Lagos.
I read something like that. These are not the functions of the Central Bank. It
will be a mistake to expand the function beyond what is correct. The Central
Bank is not a controversial institution. It is part of an establishment, and if
you are part of the establishment you must keep doing the right thing. There
are certain areas where the governor may have allowed himself to do or say
things which are not necessary.
For example when he called for the scrapping of the JNI and CAN; these are
unnecessary things. As long as there are religions there will always be things
like CAN and JNI. These are specialist areas so you can’t say that they
shouldn’t exist. I don’t think this is something he had given thought to.
When he was appointed governor of the Central Bank I sent him a letter, and in
the letter I said I was very happy that the country was able to get somebody
like him as governor of the Central Bank. It is this country which is lucky.
Why?
Because they put the right man in the right place. We had millions of
alternatives who are capable of ruining this country and at least they didn’t
put anybody who is going to ruin the institution.
So I was happy that the country, at least during his time, was going to have a
Central Bank that is well run. I know he is not there to make money; I know he
is there to do the right thing.
You are sad that he wouldn’t be
there for a second term? Is it?
It would have been good for the country if he takes the span of the two terms.
The natural thing in this country is for someone to try to have a third term.
So when you have somebody who does not want a second term, you know that that
person is just doing a job. When Obasanjo wanted to extend his tenure I was
surprised because if you are doing the job of president of Nigeria well, even
if the whole world gathers together and begs you to do a third term you should
refuse because you should be tired and really not interested.
Why should you want to have a third term if you are doing it well? It is not
something people should enjoy. It is a duty.
You were in the civil service
in 1969 but you got appointed as editor of the New Nigerian newspaper. How did
that happen?
When we were at the University [of Ibadan] we formed clubs and societies. In
Ibadan we formed a society to produce magazines and things like that. That is
where I got some experience. And it was not the first time; I got involved in
producing magazines at the Nigeria College of Arts and Science in Zaria and
continued in Ibadan.
When I graduated I was appointed an administrative officer. I worked as an
assistant secretary in the northern government in Kaduna. I went to France to
learn French, and also went to the Mambilla to become an administrative officer
there.
At that time Mambilla was not a popular posting place at all. I was posted to
finance the construction of a road by the army and by the time I came down, I
came down by road. So it means we succeeded in building the road. When I came
down I was posted to Mubi; I was administrative officer, I was provincial
electoral officer and so on and so forth.
Then in line with the policy of government, people who are qualified to be
administrative officers at certain level, the north wanted them to be in the
federal civil service to ensure that the federal system reflected the diversity
of this country.
So in 1965 I was transferred to the federal civil service; and all that process
we were happy with it, we went along with it. We agreed with it because we
believed the political leaders were doing the right thing. When the coup took
place in January 1966 the political atmosphere in this country changed. There
was talk of coups and counter coups as well as accusations.
Sardauna had just set up the New Nigerian to take over the functions of the
Nigerian Citizen and in view of the accusations and the criticisms against the
north especially by newspapers in the south, the northern civil service thought
of bringing in somebody to take over the editorship of the New Nigerian so that
the voice of the north could be heard. And as they did things in those days,
they looked around and asked who is there that has the experience and
competence to do it.
I did not know how they discovered that I did something in Zaria and Ibadan on
newspapers, so they called me and asked me to do the job. They knew I could do
it, and I accepted it and I did it. In life I have been lucky. I was always
asked to do things and I succeeded in doing them. That is how I came to work
for the newspaper as editor.
What was the relationship with
government like because people believe that when you are working for a
government newspaper, you have to dance to their tune?
No, that didn’t arise. We were talking about setting out the northern positions
and explaining northern matters. The senior people in the New Nigerian at that
time were white people and they couldn’t understand what our views and issues
were, and I was brought to do it and I did it.
You know the New Nigerian of today is not the same as that of those days. If
you want to know the assessment of people at that time you have to talk to
people of that time who are still alive. It was not just a matter of being in
government and doing what government wanted. I felt that it was our duty to do
the right thing.
But if you work for a newspaper you will always find areas where you disagree
and disagree. So I disagreed with Hassan Usman Katsina on certain issues. We
disagreed with northern governors on certain issues; we disagreed with Yakubu
Gowon on certain issues.
He didn’t close down the
newspaper?
One of his people arrested my editor and I went to Lagos and asked him, why are
you doing that? What is your problem with the newspaper? We believe we are
doing the right thing even though you may not agree with what we are doing. I
told General Gowon, ‘if you think we are not doing the right thing, give
someone the job, I am going.’
I came back and by 1974 we were quarrelling with the governors so I decided to
resign from government and went private.
So it’s not true that when you are in government you must do what governments
want you to do. You must be determined to do the right thing and to do it well,
not to do what somebody wants you to do to please him.
We were doing the right thing. Very often we shocked people because we said
precisely what is right. And we were in a position to interact with government
people and know what they were doing. So people respected us. Even now if you
take note in northern Nigeria people want to listen to foreign stations like
Voice of America, BBC and so on. It is because they are reporting what they
know is happening and what is right. If you are being controlled by government,
they are going to tell you to do what they want and not what is right.
There was a time we were talking in council and Obasanjo asked about people’s
predilection to listen to BBC and VOA and so on, and I said the only reason is
because they say exactly what is right. If you allow your system to do
what is right you will find out that ours will become just as acceptable as the
BBC and the others. People are not fools. Government is also there to do the
right thing.
Nowadays if you do the right thing, they clap. You don’t need to clap for
people doing the right thing, you only criticise people for doing the wrong
thing.
You went straight from Barewa
College to the university?
In our case, we were among the pupils who went straight from Barewa College to
an intermediate educational institution. It doesn’t exist now. It was all to
prepare you for the General Certificate of Education, GCE, which qualified a
student for the university. In our case we went straight from primary to middle
school, to Barewa College; from Barewa College to the Nigeria College of Arts
and Science, Zaria.
The Nigeria College prepared you either to go to the university or certain
study in situations like architecture or engineering or fine art. In our case
we were sent there to be prepared for the university. And that College
contained elderly people, matured students as well as school leavers like us.
Now if you are lucky to pass the GCE after one and half years, you go to the
university direct, which was what happened to people like us.
At that time the University of Ibadan was the only one in Nigeria followed by
the University of Ife and the Nsukka University. But they were not there when
we went to University of Ibadan in 1958.
What was it like, in terms of
cultural experience, coming from Barewa to Ibadan?
The Nigerian College contained students from all over Nigeria. There was one in
Zaria; there was one in Ibadan; and there was one in Enugu. Each one of them
drew students from all parts of Nigeria.
So the Nigerian College was the preparatory ground for acclimatising you for
the university, so by the time you go to the university there was nothing new
in terms of students’ mixture. So the only thing with the university is that
you know that at the end of the third year you would have graduated, and you
will have acquired a certain level of knowledge and certainty as to what
position you will occupy in government because government was the main employer
at the time.
What was the situation outside
the university, the moves towards independence and all of that? How did it
impact on you in the school?
At the university level, first you know you have your programme of study cut
out for you, and you try using the facilities, the library and things like
that, and all the things students usually do to facilitate learning. Of course
you also have the students’ politics that engaged most of the students, in fact
all the time. Through these you learn a lot from each other. You form societies
and clubs. It was a very interesting experience, I should say.
In Ibadan we had a zoo where there were various animals kept and people came
from Ibadan town to watch the animals.
There were Hausa people living in Ibadan, and some of them came with their
children to watch the animals in the zoo. I remember one day when they were
passing and they saw us, and they were excited. They said ah, here are people
from the north. They were very excited that there were people from the north in
the university. It shows you that may be they were surprised to see people from
the north in the university.
But the truth is that there were quite a large number and we enjoyed the
atmosphere, the discipline and the organisation and social interaction in the
university. It was quite a memorable life.
What influenced your field of
study in the university?
The process started at the secondary school. When we were in the final year we
started thinking of what to do, and a friend of mine from Malumfashi in Katsina
State, Aminu Malumfashi, and I said we wanted to study law, so we decided to go
to the only private lawyer in the north at that time, one Abdulrazak [AGF
Abdulrazaq]. We went to him and sought his advice on how to become a lawyer and
he told us how. So we decided to apply for scholarship to do law.
In the process, the examination, the medical test and so on, took so long that
by the time mine was completed it was too late. Luckily Aminu Malumfashi was
able to complete his own before it was too late so he went to do law.
The scholarship board decided that since it was too late for me to go and do
law, let me go to the Nigerian College and use my time to prepare and go to the
university. So it was partly accident and partly something which came from
planning.
What was the extent of
students’ participation in party politics at the university level at that time
and what was the interaction like between students belonging to different
political parties?
Students started taking more or less fairly active part in politics at the
Nigerian College level and in the university, they took part. They had their
own parties which they joined. I remember there were northern students who were
members of the NPC; some belonged to the Action Group and some to the NCNC.
But one thing which we did together as students was to organise a demonstration
against the British defence agreement with Nigeria. We formed a group and I
believe a lot of it was motivated by the Action Group. Wole Soyinka was
teaching in the school but he was participating with us in the demonstration. I
was supposed to be the treasurer of the group but I never saw money.
Treasurer of the pro-Action
Group…
No, treasurer of the anti defence pact. I don’t know how they organised it but
we had large number of lorries hired to take us to Lagos and back to Ibadan.
And we went in large numbers and disorganised the National Assembly that day. I
am telling you this to show you how active students could be in political
events. This is one thing we did in Ibadan which is very memorable.
Does it surprise you that
nowadays students are involved in entirely different things…
Nothing surprises me. At the university you know you listen to talks and
lectures from professors and things like that so you become much more
sensitive. You become much more adult and much more involved.
Today the stories are about
student cultism as well as students union being allied to the government and
getting some benefits, while in those days it was activism…
Even now I have heard so much about cultism but I can’t understand it. I think
there is something criminal at the base of it. In those days you would not
expect students to be involved in anything criminal or anything that is just
there for people to make money. The way people were prepared for life;
the idea of doing something which was not right couldn’t have arisen.
So there is a lot of difference between what used to be and what happens now.
People did things on their own esteem; on their own conviction.
After the university, what was
your career like? Was there a job and you went for it or was it something you
really wanted to do?
The educational system at that time was mostly based on the regions – the
north, east and the western regions. These regions looked after the education
of children right from the elementary school right to the university. They
prepared to train people for the various functions of government and society,
and also for the private sector. The civil service brought their requirement in
service in the various sections.
There were those that were trained to become teachers, a lot of them went to
the university knowing that when they finish they would become teachers. Some
were already teachers before they went to the university. There were some that
were going to be engineers, sociologists and things like that.
There were those who did history, fine arts and things like that and were
targeted to work in the administrative section of the civil service. I
did history so I was expected to be a teacher or to be an administrative
officer. The civil service expected me to join the administrative sector and I
did.
I knew before leaving the university and on the day I left the university I
joined the administrative service. So in a way you knew what you were being
prepared for and the system ensured that people were prepared for the various
requirements in the service.
Of course up to the 1970s the number of people required for these jobs were
more than the number of students in the university.
It is now that you have problems. There are more students doing more things
than what the government or the commercial system requires. That is how the
matter of unemployment arose.
Is it a failure of planning or
what?
Yes, I believe that it is a failure of planning and sometimes I feel it is
listening to inapplicable advice from other economies. By 1983, we were already
beginning to have economic problems and the problem of unemployment had
started. The coup took place at the end of 1983 and Buhari became head of state
after which President Babangida came in.
During Babangida the IMF advised them that the naira was overvalued and that
there were too many people in the civil service. They took that advice and
devalued the naira so terribly and unemployment became rampant. Government was
also told that they had to reduce the number of people in their employment.
Since then, in my view, government stopped thinking about how to deal with
unemployment problem, and up to now we are living with it. To me that is one of
the failures of government. When Obama became president he declared that his
mission was to create jobs, but we in Nigeria we’re supposed to make that
statement before him.
I believe that up to now not enough is being made to create jobs. You keep
telling people to go to school and when they come out they should be self
employed…
How do you think the
unemployment problem could be solved?
Government must admit that they have to ensure that there is education which
moves people from darkness to light. You can’t say you will not educate
people because there aren’t jobs. When you educate people you must know they
are going to be active and they need jobs; you do not expect them to create
jobs for themselves.
Some will create jobs but it will just be one here and one there, just a few.
But government must ensure that the economy expands to create jobs both in the
public and private sectors. Government must take this idea of creating jobs
very seriously otherwise there will be no peace.
How do you look at the ongoing
process of implementing the Oronsaye report, which is aimed at further cutting
jobs because it says too much is being spent on overhead, and may be the best
way to do it is by cutting down the number of duplicated commissions and
agencies?
We have to look at the economy as a whole. Oronsaye recommended the merger of
certain institutions that were created thoughtlessly so that we have so much
duplication. But it doesn’t mean that people are doing their jobs.
It doesn’t mean that you have to contract the jobs. You can bring these
institutions together but you want them to be effective in what they do, so
what Oronsaye is saying is that you minister of information, you have foreign
broadcasting, you have internal broadcasting, and you have NOA and so on.
These were just created like that without too much thinking. So you need to
think of how to bring them together. Again, if you take EFCC and ICPC, EFCC is
just doing the criminal aspect of what the police are supposed to be doing, and
the ICPC is doing the criminal aspect of what the civil service commission is
supposed to be doing. And why were they created? Because the police force was
not doing its work well! Instead of ensuring that the police are doing their
job, you create an institution to do it, and in the end you discover that the
institution is not living up and you create another.
I think the civil service has a duty to think seriously about the problem of
the nation –administrative, economic, social– and provide solution. But this is
not what is being done now, not enough of it.
I keep telling people in government that even though Nigeria is producing oil
the base of the economy is agriculture and I know that not enough is being done
in the sector. If you go to states it is a disgrace that sometimes they buy
fertilizers and find that it is mixed with sand or rubbish. How can you do that
to your people?
There is supposed to be a
revolution going on where you can get fertiliser by phone?
This is all rubbish. By the time of the first coup, what was happening in the
north was that government was ensuring that more and more cattle-driven ploughs
were being distributed. By the time we came to government as NPN more and more
tractors and other things were being supplied. We ensured that fertilisers were
all over and being sold at government price.
But they said you created
something like a cartel, and the middle people were benefitting, you were
giving big contracts and so on?
It’s not true. In fact, we ensured that the process of contract was open. That
was why I resigned from government under Abacha. For the health sector, village
dispensaries were being done regularly. But not enough is being done now.
Patients go to hospitals and lie on the floor, and if you don’t have money you
die.
People in government are supposed to think of the problems of this country and
recommend solutions. In those days if in your position you are entitled to a
motorcycle and somebody sees you driving a car, they will go and tell your
boss, and you will go and explain how it became possible.
Nobody did what he was not expected to do, what his income is not expected to
allow him to do. Now we have got to a point where somebody who is looking after
the pension of people will take billions. What will you do with billions?
Somebody will not sell oil but will go and take oil subsidy. You say there are
people in NNPC who are abusing their
positions; what do you do with them?
You just sacked them but what have you done to the others? So the issue is that
government is supposed to look after the interest of the ordinary people. But I
fear that the civil service is not operating as it ought to. And the report of
the Fika panel, which I have seen, I have not seen anybody in government doing
anything about it. This is basic to government; it is not the kind of thing
that you do in political campaign. It is absolutely necessary for the civil
service to do the things for which the society expects them to deal with to
solve problems of the society.
This is not being done. Nobody has said government has read this report and
this is what they are doing about it. If you want things done right, you want
to get the machinery of government working well, you have to first of all set
aside things which are popular because they are political. Unfortunately, if
you never knew how it worked…but if you try you can ensure that you bring in
experts to reconstruct the civil service.
This is one thing that requires so much attention but it is something which is
little understood. That is why I feel it is important to have in politics
people who have some understanding of the civil service. I say this because if
you don’t understand the civil service and what it can do you may be holding
power in your hand and you won’t know what to do with it. This is exactly what
we have now.
People just think that being in power is to enable you make money, that is
where corruption comes in, and you see people trying to corner what they don’t
need.
Then how do you see the
suggestion that there should be capital punishment for those involved in
corruption?
You cannot start inventing things like that. Everything which you see
happening, by law it must have some basis. When you say that thieves should be
killed, where do you stop? You will find a man who steals goat being killed but
the man who looted pension money resigns; you will find a governor who steals,
and the people in that state will tell you to stop worrying him, ‘it is our
money he stole’; or he escapes from another country wearing woman’s garb, he
comes back and you pardon him.
Even the pardon that they use to do; they use to do it after so many years not
when the man is still holding plenty of money and enjoying. So it is this kind
of thing which shows that the system is not working and nobody is interested in
making it work. When they appoint a commission to look at an issue, the report
is thrown away.
So back to your question, you cannot start inventing new crimes and inventing
punishments. If there are more thieves now, it is because the existing thieves
have not been punished according to the existing law. If you upgrade
punishment, it doesn’t mean that you have upgraded the catching system.
So what is the use of upgrading the punishment when you cannot catch the
thieves and deal with them? If you deal with them according to the existing
law, you will find out that the new law is not necessary.
